The King of All BMW Owners

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
03/02/2015 at 13:00 • Filed to: None

Let me tell you the story of the greatest BMW owner of all time, Dr. Ira Gore. He loved his black BMW so deeply that he sued its maker and won a $4 million jury award because it had $601.37 of paint repair before he bought it. He fought all the way to the US Supreme Court, cementing his claim as King of all BMW owners.

Dr. Gore dropped $40,750.88 on a "black BMW sports sedan" at a BMW dealer in Birmingham, Alabama, in January 1990. In the fall of that year he brought it to a detailing shop named "Slick Finish," run by a guy whose last name was Slick. Seriously. Gore later testifed his intent was to get his BMW to look "snazzier."

I assume BMW owners are now nodding along in agreement.

Mr. Slick told Gore that his black beauty had seen a little paintwork. Gore had never had the car repainted; it must have been repainted prior to delivery. Gore soon discovered that BMW had a policy of not disclosing predelivery repairs if they cost less than 3 percent of the MSRP. According to BMW, the repairs to Gore's car only cost $601.37, below the threshold for disclosure under their guidelines.

They told Gore that they had done this with other cars – 14 in Alabama and a total of 983 across all of America. Gore had found his calling. He would sue BMW not only for his financial damages – which he pegged at a little over $4,000 – but for punitive damages totaling $4 million based on the widespread harm to all the other BMW owners in his situation. An Alabama jury agreed with Gore, and handed him a verdict of more than $4 million. Presumably, a light shone down from heaven and a host of angels sang as Gore was elevated from merely a man who wanted a snazzier BMW to the Monarch of ALL BMW Owners.

Some people paused and wondered: "Was it fair to award this man enough money to buy 98 more BMWs because of an undisclosed paint repair of only $601.37?"

Part of the grumbling arose because Gore did not seek to have the $4,000 per car penalty distributed to his subjects – I mean, the owners of the other cars with the undisclosed repairs – he intended to keep it. That would be his way of teaching BMW a lesson. And that is, after all, rule #1 of being King: You govern your subjects by keeping their stuff.

While the commoners whispered, BMW appealed. The Alabama Supreme Court looked at his Highness, King Gore, and reduced the jury award by half. According to them, he was still the exalted ruler of the realm where BMW owners reside, but his riches would only be enough to buy perhaps 49 new BMWs – or, $2,000,000. A small setback but nothing more for the King. Then, BMW appealed that ruling to the US Supreme Court.

To appreciate this epic battle, one must realize how few cases are heard by the Supreme Court, notwithstanding the number of times a shirtless meth-head has yelled at a "Cops" camera, "I'm going to take this to the Supreme Court!" Of the 10,000 cases submitted to them each year, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! no more than 80. They took BMW v Gore .

Meanwhile, the case gathered media attention. Not all of it was negative. The New York Times !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in the matter "unsavory."

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Gore's fortunes would reverse at the Supreme Court. The court noted that BMW had since changed its policy regarding predelivery damage. BMW - after losing this case and one other on the exact same issue - had gone to a nationwide policy of full disclosure of all repairs, "no matter how minor." And BMW argued to the court that they were under no legal obligation to disclose. In fact, many states had even adopted statutes protecting car sellers for nondisclosure of damages of this sort.

The Supreme Court skipped over most of that however, and instead focused on the size of the punitive damage award. Gore must have known the enemy was at the gates of his kingdom when the court noted that BMW's conduct only harmed him in a "purely economic" way. His car ran fine and still looked snazzy. The most he could say was that it was devalued a bit. It was sacrilege but sometimes even the King gets bad news.

The court ruled against Gore and sent the case back to Alabama for its courts to recalculate the proper award. The Alabama Supreme Court was not pleased but played along. They offered Gore a choice: He could have a new trial - where the jury would have to follow new guidelines when calculating damages - or a judgment of $50,000. Instead of the money to buy a fleet of BMWs, he'd get enough money to buy just one. He'd have a little money left over for a few trips to Mr. Slick. This is the last we heard of the case so presumably he took the money.

Despite the setback, Ira Gore is still the greatest BMW owner of all time. The Alabama Supreme Court ruling which ended his case was issued in 1997, meaning he fought this battle for seven years . And, of course, BMW owners today nod slowly, wistfully, remembering the brief time when an imperceptible blemish on their BMW might be worth $4,000,000. And that time frame when BMW would disclose any predelivery damage to a buyer, no matter how slight.

You see, BMW and the other car companies did not take this learning opportunity to reassess how they did business. Instead, they ran to the state legislatures and got more laws passed expressly allowing them to conceal predelivery repairs like those done to Gore's BMW. BMW's earlier policy of nondisclosure became the law of the land, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! by various legal thinkers and writers.

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But BMW owners across the land should revere Dr. Ira Gore, who merely wanted a flawless BMW, nothing more than any BMW buyer would expect. If not just a little bit snazzier.

Follow me on Twitter: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Hear my podcast on iTunes: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Steve Lehto has been practicing law for 23 years, almost exclusively in consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! He wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

This website may supply general information about the law but it is for informational purposes only. This does not create an attorney-client relationship and is not meant to constitute legal advice, so the good news is we're not billing you by the hour for reading this. The bad news is that you shouldn't act upon any of the information without consulting a qualified professional attorney who will, probably, bill you by the hour.

DISCUSSION (100)

functionoverfashion > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:02

So, how much do you think he spent protracting a 7-year long legal battle? In any case, what exactly was the Alabama Supreme Court smoking when they issued the full damages to one person? Isn't that what a class-action lawsuit is for, where damages are distributed among the members?

Also, I assume he was unable to use the turn signals during his ownership, being afraid to damage the paint by repeatedly heating and cooling the turn signal housing.

BJ > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:03

Wonderful story and an amazing writeup. Great job, Steve!

After the new disclosure guidelines became law, I wonder if anybody ever walked up to Dr Gore and said, "You really fucked that up, son."

SteveLehto > functionoverfashion
03/02/2015 at 14:06

This case is amazing all the way around. It probably cost someone a fortune. Makes you wonder if it was on a contingency. In that case, the attorney got zero because the costs would have swallowed the $50K.

The damages were issued by a jury, upheld by the trial court, cut in half by the Alabama Supreme Court and then cut to $50K on the second visit to the supremes. It was the jury that was sloking something.

And yes, that it one of the major points here: As an element of HIS damages, those other cars are a stretch. As a class action, it would have had a much better chance of survival but he would not have gotten the $2 - $4 Million.

SteveLehto > BJ
03/02/2015 at 14:07

And if so, did he care?!

Thanks for the note.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:18

Can't blame him for being pissed as hell that his new car was damaged before he took delivery. The rest, well... It ain't easy being king?

SteveLehto > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
03/02/2015 at 14:19

I'd be pissed too. But $4 MILLION pissed? Not sure.

Thanks for the note.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:25

A friend of mine here at work has been in the middle of a lemon law battle for a couple years now... I think it's taken years off his life.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/aut…

http://www.autosafety.org/complaint-jeff…

SteveLehto > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
03/02/2015 at 14:28

Wow. Sadly, that happens all the time.

SlabSheetrock > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:29

Shit like this is why I really am starting to actively dislike being a BMW owner.

Andrew Daisuke > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:29

#Notallbimmerdrivers

E92M3 > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:30

I KNEW i should of sued them for that leaky rear view mirror they refused to cover under warranty!

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:30

Wait. This made it to the Supreme Court?

SteveLehto > Andrew Daisuke
03/02/2015 at 14:30

When I first read about the case back in the day, my first thought was "I'm so glad he isn't a lawyer!"

SteveLehto > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap
03/02/2015 at 14:31

YES.

For Sweden > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:31

And that is, after all, rule #1 of being King: You govern your subjects by keeping their stuff.

Is that a King or a General Secretary of the Communist Party?

SteveLehto > E92M3
03/02/2015 at 14:31

A $6 million case if there ever was one.

SteveLehto > For Sweden
03/02/2015 at 14:32

Both. Oddly, people at the top all kind of govern the same way. They just have different titles.

Ash78, voting early and often > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:33

Only a small fraction of BMW owners in the related class action opted to take the alternative award: No cash for diminution of value, but the legal right to cease all turn signal usage and a permanent pair of handicap placards that can be used concurrently, if needed.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:34

He could have been done with it all before now, but they pissed him off enough that he wants to do as much damage as possible, and hopefully change things for the better going forward in Oklahoma.

Vin > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:34

Adding to the whole "BMW owners are assholes" stereotype...

ldympr > SlabSheetrock
03/02/2015 at 14:34

I like mine, but yea-this kind of crap makes me mad.

Voice of C. Montgomery Burns > SlabSheetrock
03/02/2015 at 14:34

Because of something that happened in 1990?

Lars Vargas was hoping 2020 would be quieter > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
03/02/2015 at 14:35

I'd be pissed, but pissed by the amount of damage to the car and maybe a few extra oil changes for my time or something. $4,000,00 pissed? No. I don't think a paint repair is worth a mansion to park the car in front of, so I can admire the non-factory paint work from bay window.

StevenG > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:35

This is probably why most car makers sell cars that are damaged in transit as used. Way easier to deal with.

FromCanadaWithLove > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:35

My BMW is covered in salt. A night of snazzying (sp?) is in order, I guess.

Great article. $4 million is ridiculous. $50,000 is even ridiculous, but I guess that would cover the court expenses for a 7 year (7 year!) dispute.

SteveLehto > StevenG
03/02/2015 at 14:36

Or repair them and not disclose. Since they can do that whenever the damages can be made to look like they are less than whatever the % is in the most liberal state on the subject.

BlueStreak9147 > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:36

Plus: The award was large enough to get BMW to change their bad behavior.

Minus: Because of this suit, all new car dealerships in Alabama now force you to waive your right to sue them in court, and instead, when you sign the paperwork, you agree to handle all disputes with the dealer through arbitration.

SteveLehto > FromCanadaWithLove
03/02/2015 at 14:36

SNAZZIFY!

Thanks.

SteveLehto > BlueStreak9147
03/02/2015 at 14:37

Yes, one temporary small step forward. A HUGE step backwards.

Fix It Again Tony > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:38

I can understand. I wasn't too happy when the first time I washed my new car, I found a tiny little touchup paint spot that wasn't disclosed.

StevenG > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:38

I am sure some do, but I know at least one brand does not.

Since the transport company's insurance is paying out in many these cases, it shows up on the car fax. Now if the car is damaged before it is loaded onto the truck or railcar, yeah they probably just don't disclose the repairs.

Schem > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:39

Good summary of a very interesting case, Steve. This case has showed up in several of my classes in lawschool, but we haven't studied it indepth apart from showing how varried jury awards can be. Dr. Gore's BMW e34 was actually purchased by his attorney, who as far as I know still has it.

Kinja'd!!!

http://web.law.duke.edu/voices/bmw

bubbajoe123456 > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap
03/02/2015 at 14:39

SCOTUS took the case to set standards around what level of punitive damages can be justified, and set up several criteria for it.

YeahthatG > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:40

My thoughts exactly. Assuming Mr. Gore's Lawyer was working on a basis of earning a percentage of the award only, the only real winners in this case are BMW's lawyers. Like you said, 50k is hardly worth the time and aggravation to fight this case, and certainly a waste of time for the lawyer. BMW however, must have paid their lawyers a fortune to fight it this long. I guess the moral victory was more important than 4 mil, which is probably a drop in the bucket for BMW.

SteveLehto > StevenG
03/02/2015 at 14:40

You have a lot more faith in them than I do. Somehow, many of these cars wind up being sold without disclosure. I am curious about how many people demand to see a Carfax on a brand new vehicle?

SteveLehto > Schem
03/02/2015 at 14:41

Wow. Thanks for the pics. I am not sure how proud I would be if I had a $4 million judgment in my hands and then watched it slip away.

StevenG > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:43

In the cases I know of, they are sold as used cars. Most folks want to see the carfax on a used car.

This is not based on faith, this is based on what I have seen happen with my own eyes. There is a dealer in my area that specializes in these cars. They are surprisingly upfront about the whole thing, and will even give you the forms from the repair. That include parts used, and cost. Not saying all brands do this, but at least one does.

mongopawningameoflife > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:43

So this moron wasted 7 years of his life and untold thousands of dollars because his precious BMW had a little unnoticeable paint work done.

Idiot.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Lars Vargas was hoping 2020 would be quieter
03/02/2015 at 14:43

It'd be interesting to know that the guy thought would be a fair settlement, and then how much was the lawyer pushing him to get every last dime he could out of them.

stevethecurse > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:44

"BMW and the other car companies did not take this learning opportunity to reassess how they did business. Instead, they ran to the state legislatures and got more laws passed expressly allowing them to conceal predelivery repairs like those done to Gore's BMW. BMW's earlier policy of nondisclosure became the law of the land..."

This is the biggest piece of sheisty bullshit right here. Fuck our legislature. Fuck them up their stupid asses.

SteveLehto > StevenG
03/02/2015 at 14:44

I cannot recall every seeing a vehicle sold as "Used" to its first titled owner. Are you sure they are not calling them "Demo" or something similar?

SteveLehto > stevethecurse
03/02/2015 at 14:45

I like how commenters can often say so succinctly what I was trying to say the whole time.

Thanks.

StevenG > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:46

It is the second titled owner. The first is the repair company/some holding company. Might also be the car is sold to an owner and then damaged in transport to them. Not sure. They then bill the shipper for repair and lost value.

Not a lot of demo cars with sub 50 miles on them.

caddyak > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:47

This is actually a very interesting case for a lot of reasons. It's one of the first ones you study in any law school or business law class.

I think a lot of people don't understand the idea of punitive damages. They're meant to punish the company for wrongdoings. The recipient isn't important, usually just the first person to be successful in court. All that matters is BMW loses enough money to never do it again. That's the goal of it.

A lot of consumer protection laws were written and adapted after this case. People simply had no idea car companies did this and a lot were outraged.

Ira Gore wasn't intentionally being a dick. In a documentary about the case he took BMW to court "out of principle". He didn't think it was right they could deceive any customer like that. And when he found out it applied to a lot of car companies, he wanted to change the law. He expected to get the sum of his vehicle purchase price at the very most, but Alabama was one of the few states that issued punitive punishments on a state level.

It's really an interesting case and Ira Gore did do some good for the common man.

athought123 > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:47

Alabama Supreme Court not happy with scotus? Seems like just another day in Alabama

doubleshotpower > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:49

The United States of America........Land of the Lawsuit

SteveLehto > StevenG
03/02/2015 at 14:50

That is weird. I've never encountered that. I was thinking they'd go the route of manufacturer-owned which would allow them to go with some other designation. But by doing the titles that way, it would guarantee it would show on a title history (and most likely a car fax).

Beer-light Guidance > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:50

To be fair the Supreme Court did admit that their ruling in BMW v. Gore was a make-up call for Bush v. Gore.

caddyak > StevenG
03/02/2015 at 14:51

Ira's BMW wasn't smashed up on a car carrier. Soot landed on the roof from a passing cargo ship en route to America. Being fresh paint and acidic soot, it ruined the finish. The 3PL in charge doesn't wash the cars off. That's BMWs job and likely when they notice to damaged paint on the roof and repaired it. Do you really think BMW or the 3PL would claim insurance on that? No, it's way too easy to fix and you can still do it today.

King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:51

King of the BMW Owners? Yup, sounds like the right kind of guy to represent that ownership group.

SteveLehto > Beer-light Guidance
03/02/2015 at 14:53

I tried to figure out a way to work that in.

Yours is the perfect application. Thanks!

caddyak > mongopawningameoflife
03/02/2015 at 14:55

He did it out of principle. At least he tried to stand up for the little guy and sacrificed his time and money in the name of consumer protection. Read the actual case and you'll have some background info.

Aikidoshadow > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 14:58

Just one more reason to not buy a new car, I worked for a dealer that had the body shop fix all their lot and transportation damage. I wont buy a new car anymore because of that experience.

Jimmy Joe Meeker > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:01

In general, many assembly factories rework products that fail an inspection, are found to have a part with a quality issue, or are cosmetically damaged. The ones that don't do this make products that aren't worth the effort. This happens for practically everything we buy that's worth more than a few dollars. Sure if a cake or a box of frozen peas isn't just right it gets shuffled off to donation, the trash, or the bargain bin but as the price goes up this happens less and less.

Fred von Halem > StevenG
03/02/2015 at 15:02

In my experience new cars damaged in transit were repaired and sold as new. It was not a secret in the least. We would often have the new cars damaged in transit fixed at the same time as used cars that were getting touched up for the front line. Dents pulled and paint sprayed right behind the shop, scratches buffed out in recon. Didn't even take them to the body shop. Only saw a few new cars damaged in transit actually have to go to the body shop. They were all definitely sold as new. Damage was not disclosed. Damage was not reported to carfax.

ranwhenparked > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:03

Depends on the era, but since WWII, nearly all corrupt dictators around the world have preferred to call themselves presidents.

1.21 JIGGA WATTS!!! > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
03/02/2015 at 15:04

OR, it would be more interesting to see if Gore was the one pushing for 4 million and his lawyer was pleading for a reasonable number. Some people get dollar signs in their eyes when they get told they may have a reasonable chance of winning a lawsuit. "Blood in their eyes/Blood in the water" effect...

Quade > mongopawningameoflife
03/02/2015 at 15:05

You're looking at it the wrong way. He spent 7 years and almost earned $4 mil. He could have probably pocketed the $2 mil the Alabama supremes knocked it down to if he hadn't gotten greedy.

How many years would you have to work to earn 4 mil? Assuming you're making 100K a year, you'd have to work 40 years to make that. He probably wasn't working on the case full time anyway. It's better than the lottery. If he'd just stopped while he was winning, he'd be a happy man today.

As for him being an altruist, I'd believe it if he actually planned to pay the other victims.

StevenG > Fred von Halem
03/02/2015 at 15:06

I realize that is legal, but it should not be. Those are not new cars.

ranwhenparked > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:08

Dr. Gore is apparently still practicing in Birmingham, too. I checked out of curiosity, since he was able to afford a $73,000 car in 1990, I figured he probably wasn't that young. But, I guess he was. Wonder if he still drives a 5-Series, or if he's switched to a Sonata (they do have better paint quality than Mercedes, according to the commercial).

Countersteer > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:09

"An Alabama jury agreed with Gore, and handed him a verdict of more than $4 million."

Alabama juries are notorious for handing out huge punitive awards. Be glad you're not in the water heater business.

(and I say this having been born and raised in Alabama.)

Megamullin > Schem
03/02/2015 at 15:10

Kinja'd!!!

It looks like the attorney got paid. Please see my sarcastic shock gif:

StraightSixes > Jimmy Joe Meeker
03/02/2015 at 15:11

I think you're missing a big point here. Something that is re-worked in manufacturing still has to be taken apart, altered and then pass end of the line testing (visul, functionality, whatever the manufacturer and the buyer agree on...).

It was my understanding from this article that the type of repairs bmw and others were doing were occurring after having left the factory. As an engineer who works in manufacturing, that's a big difference.

Bad72AMX > Aikidoshadow
03/02/2015 at 15:11

Well, it's certain your used cars have had no paint repairs before you bought them, so that's a great theory.

Velvet Elvis > For Sweden
03/02/2015 at 15:12

Generally it applies to those in power.

spngr311 > stevethecurse
03/02/2015 at 15:13

This is the part that really sucks about it.

For Sweden > Velvet Elvis
03/02/2015 at 15:13

True, but Mossad lets me keep my stuff.

Equana > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:15

I think I read this story a bit differently...

Mr. Gore has reinforced the reputation of BMW owners being the empty containers of feminine hygiene wash products....

And that the legal system is far overdue for an overhaul when people such as Mr. Gore are treating it like the Lotto.

Just a side note, Steve, how much do you think Mr. Gore spent to litigate this all the way to the Supreme Court and back? More than $50K? I'd bet it was WAY more than $50K, or did the court force BMW to pick up the tab?

The Compromiser > Voice of C. Montgomery Burns
03/02/2015 at 15:15

Please note: This is probably the first and only time A BMW owner has indicated actively.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > 1.21 JIGGA WATTS!!!
03/02/2015 at 15:16

Could definitely have been the situation as well.

Syscrush > mongopawningameoflife
03/02/2015 at 15:17

Slick noticed it.

SteveLehto > Equana
03/02/2015 at 15:17

We do not know how much it cost him but I suspect the costs dwarfed his award.

As for how you and I read the story, I suspect we are more alike than you suspect.

StevenG > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:18

To be more clear, this is the story they gave me. Including documentation, which appeared to be legit. I am not buying anything or selling anything, I just thought it was odd.

For all I know this is some kind of elaborate ruse to get me to make a certain dealer or brand sound better. Which is why I have named neither.

Harvey > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:19

I sort of assumed this was standard practice; during pre-delivery inspection, some minor fault is found. Dealership repairs the fault and the goods are sold as described.

Heck, Aston Martin do this (and probably many other manufacturers also) even before the car leaves the paintshop within the factory. Inspect the finish, improve (repair) until perfect beyond perfection. Is there a difference?

If a car is found to have a cracked headlight is it so wrong to replace it with a working item?

Jimmy Joe Meeker > StraightSixes
03/02/2015 at 15:20

If you or I had a nickle for everything that got reworked that we've dealt with we'd have a lot of nickels.

Certainly you've dealt with reworking product sitting at distributors or dealers? Sometimes the people go there, sometimes the product comes back. You know the drill.

The article says BMW did it and it was BMW that was sued, so given the text of the article I am assuming this was done by BMW either at the assembly plant or elsewhere. Even Ferrari fixes paint defects at the factory.

GrayHays > caddyak
03/02/2015 at 15:22

It certainly helped my dumbass 1L brain absorb the concept of Torts.

SteveLehto > Harvey
03/02/2015 at 15:22

That is the $64K question. Most people would agree that there is a level of repair which would be inconsequential (headlight) and then some kind of repair which ought to be disclosed: http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/my-new-car-tri…

The question is - Where is the line?

duckstu > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:22

Our government steals money like that daily. They find some person or corporation in violation of something that harms another (price-fixing, insider trading, trade agreement violation, etc),.. and they levy a huge fine,.. and then keep the money for themselves rather than distribute it to the stock-holders or businesses that were actually harmed.

BJ > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:23

Of course he didn't! He's a BMW owner and the opinions of the unwashed masses are therefore of no interest to him.

KenHamNo > For Sweden
03/02/2015 at 15:24

The Chinese are pretty happy with how their last few General Secretaries have turned out.

E92M3 > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:25

I was surprised when I contacted NHSTA they didn't want to be bothered. That issue rendered millions of 2000 era BMW's mirrors useless. That seems like a safety issue if I've ever heard of one.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:29

Good to know that we are discussing the big issues in the Supreme Court

tommysticks > Countersteer
03/02/2015 at 15:29

You nailed it on the head. People loved to sue in Alabama (and several other Southern states) because those local juries would be told how those evil people from up North, or, in this case, "fehr-eners," were trying to take advantage of our good Southern citizens. Hey, he almost pulled it off.

randomadjuster > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:29

Carfax would be all but useless. Eons ago, I worked for a new car dealership (used car sales, terrible job for me), and I remember a brand new ford ranger fresh off the truck getting wrecked by the detail dept. One of the guys decided it was fast to hoon the cars around the giant back parking lot instead of hand drying them, and had smack the truck into a pole wanging the fender. After castigating the idiot, the dealership did not hand the car to the body shop. No, they brought in one of those scratch and dent guys that sets up a little partial cut-in booth on the lot and paints the thing outside.

While the terrible outside paint job was happening, I happened to walk by and the guy pointed out that this was not the first repair the truck had seen. He showed me where it had been painted on the opposite bedside. This was a truck with about 6 miles on it and two accidents requiring paint, neither of which ever saw an insurance claim as they were done in shady circumstances by Captain Cut-in. And the first one? Yeah, at the factory. Carfax (which didn't exist back then) would've had no way to have heard about either hit on this truck.

martin > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:30

Well Ira means rage in Spanish, it all makes sense now

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:30

Dealers and manufacturers can be so two-faced it's not even funny. Back in 1989 by dad was buying a 525i to replace his 1984 528e. He owned the 528 since new; it was in immaculate condition and had never had any body repairs. The dealer wanted to knock down the value of his trade because it had some paint repair, something that must have been done before he took delivery in 1984.

To add insult to injury, the 525i had some paint damage done in transit because of the car above it leaking brake fluid. The dealer wasn't concerned, and said that they'd repaint the damaged sections before delivery. Excuse me? Umm, no. Understandably, he told them to find another car and that he would not accept the repainted one.

26 years later that same 525i soldiers on, albeit after much paint work from accidents that dad and I each got into during our tenures as owner. The last time I saw her a couple of years back, the desert sun in Vegas had taken its toll, and it looks like it could use another paint job, but after so many years this shouldn't be much of a surprise.

SteveLehto > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap
03/02/2015 at 15:31

Exactly!

rabbit > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:32

What's the deal with them, these days? We recently bought an F30 and have recently discovered the exact same thing, almost the exact same way. The car has serious issues with wind noise leaking through the weather stripping and a few other issues, upon further inspection, the right driver door has been repainted POORLY (paint is literally dripping down under the handle and near the lower portion of it to the side skirt). This obviously wasn't disclosed to us, and in fact the car was delayed from delivery (special ordered) multiple times.

Quite curious as this thing wasn't cheap, and we are feeling a bit taken.

DetroitMuscle > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:33

Let's suppose that the vehicle was scratched while being assembled at the factory and the talented personnel fixed it. Is that different than if it were scratched in delivery or at a dealer?

My point is that the vehicle can still be considered new even though it had been properly repaired to as-new condition.Otherwise it may show in CarFax as having been touched up on the assembly line,which I doubt would make any sense.

PsonicPsunspot > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:34

A few years ago, my dad gave me his 2005 Ford Mustang GT convertible. It was a great car that had only 5,000 miles on it at the time, and I put probably 5,000 more on it that first summer alone. The car was immaculate — it had never been in an accident — and I drove it until I realized that I would need to sell it, for several reasons.

My first stop was a local classic car gallery who offers to sell cars on consignment. When the owner came out to look at the car, he was impressed...until he pulled out a device that is supposed to measure thickness of paint. "I'm sorry," he said, "but this car has been in an accident."

"No, it hasn't," I said.

He held up the device. "Yes it has," he said. "It's been repainted. Just look at the difference in paint depth along the passenger door."

I shook my head. I was getting more and more frustrated. "It's never been in an accident," I said. "My dad owned it for five years and put 5,000 miles on it during that time. It's never even been driven in the rain ."

But he wouldn't believe me—and he wouldn't take the car, either. I ended up selling it on eBay, but: fuck shitty factory paint jobs, and fuck mid-2000 Ford products.

SteveLehto > DetroitMuscle
03/02/2015 at 15:35

I think most people would see a repair done at the factory as different from one done elsewhere. Or at least, it seems so to me.

randomadjuster > StevenG
03/02/2015 at 15:35

I honestly don't know why people ask for carfax. I've been an adjuster and appraiser in the insurance business for over sixteen years now and, while I've reported all sorts of things to DMV, I've never reported anything to carfax. I talk to insurance adjusters all the time, and never found one that has ever reported anything to carfax. I deal with body shops all the time and never talked to one that reported anything to carfax. Just last week, I was in a ford dealership that had big signs up about carfax and how they used it and reported to it, and I asked the body shop manager if he reported to carfax.

Me: So, *points to the sign* you guys report to carfax?
Body Shop Manager: Oh, yeah, we report to carfax.
Me: Do you fill out the forms?
BSM: Not me personally.
Me: Does someone else here?
BSM: *now looking a bit nervous/confused* Um, you know, not that I know of. I guess the insurance companies do.

I've had this conversation more times than I can count. I would honestly like to know who is reporting, because I sure don't know anyone myself that does.

JimSlade > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:35

and people still don't think BMW owners are pricks...

StevenG > randomadjuster
03/02/2015 at 15:40

If you report it to the DMV, carfax will have that info. It is also quite likely that your company, if you work for a major insurer sells that data periodically.

I don't think a ford mechanic would need to report anything, ideally the computer system does that. Just like ideally your computer system does that without any humans in the loop. I can't even imagine why anyone would fill out a form for it, that seems so archaic.

People ask for carfax, because it will tell you if the title is bad. If the title has been washed, if the car was in an accident. A non-totalling accident is not something that is on any title I know of.

Downshift-Dave > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:45

Steve, great article. Your writing is always interesting to me.

Wow, this stirs up mixed emotions.

At first glance, I'm thinking "What a jerk. Here's a rich guy with a big ego. How petty to have a pissing match over this. His tirade cost taxpayers a lot of money in the form of lost productivity in our court system".

At second glance, after watching the documentary, I think, "He didn't start out wanting $4 million. He wanted roughly $4,000 for the hit the paint repair did to his depreciation. And, he wanted BMW to change their actions. Okay, it's a reasonable demand"

Current opinion, "This is a SMART guy who made a DUMB decision. The guy is living a seemingly idyllic life with success, family, and money. Why doesn't he just let it go? Why didn't he settle the lawsuit early on?"

Also, Alabama - this state never ceases to amaze me. Glad I moved away.

DMaculate > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:45

"Instead, they ran to the state legislatures and got more laws passed expressly allowing them to conceal predelivery repairs like those done to Gore's BMW."

Because, here in the land of the free, if you don't like something you can change it with money and corruption. HOORAY AMERICA!!!!

SteveLehto > Downshift-Dave
03/02/2015 at 15:46

Thanks for the note. The question I always wondered about was "Why not file it as a class action?" If they had pursued that and gotten a huge award for the whole class, it was much more likely to stand up to the appeals.

Of course, he wouldn't have gotten to keep it all either.

Bob Zuercher > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:50

he fought this battle for seven years .

When it comes to the court system, that's pretty dag quick if you ask me. There's a guy here in Tuscaloosa, AL that was charged with 18 counts of attempted murder (he shot up a bar, injuring 17 and he fired shots at several others). That happened nearly 3 years ago. His case is still awaiting trial.

JakeBrake > SteveLehto
03/02/2015 at 15:51

I dont remember everything from your article on selling/buying as-is cars, but would he be required to disclose the pre-delivery damage if a buyer asks about any damage the seller knows of?

SteveLehto > Bob Zuercher
03/02/2015 at 15:51

Is that guy getting adjournments? A lot of times, criminal defendants have a desire to delay cases as long as they can.